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Bob Bain

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Trevor on Lucretius [Dec. 29th, 2006|09:27 pm]
Bob Bain
[Current Mood |pensivepensive]

My LiveJournal Entry on Lucretius (link to a few days ago)


Hello, Bob. That was a very interesting blog. What I can't understand with
all these people who say we don't need a Deity, because we have atoms, is,
why do they think it is an either /or matter? I pondered the mysteries of
God 'n' science when I was small. About six. I sussed out that even if the
universe did not come ready made, some one could have made the atoms and
cells etc. I still don't see anything wrong with this reasoning. Neither did

People look at it all arse about face.

The universe is. It is here, it is there. We are here. We are there. It is
obvious to me that it has its own INTERNAL intelligence. Note: Intelligence.

The plan is in the egg and in the sperm. They carry the wherewithal and
info to reproduce the organism from wh. they came. Alan and I used to ponder
the fact that you only get a dog from dogs; only a cat from cats. The REAL
unintentional but quite apposite. No use hoping for a penguin or a rare
chaffinch from the mating of two humans.

'The Argument From Design' that people take issue with might well be
challengeable. I think it is a mistake to think that God is an old chap in a
long white dressing gown and a long white beard who made the world as in
Genesis-in-translation. But I appreciate that you might - well not you, Bob,
but some people - may be happy with this is idea. They may see more in it
than I do. I think we make God in our image - or men made God in their
image, and now women have joined in this sort of thing they are quite sure
God is a Goddess. They see God in their image.

Alan and I have had intimations that cats have their own cat god that
'applies' to ALL the cat family. From whence it follows that dogs have their
Goddog - or DogGod, and all the animals who are 'conscious' remotely in this
way have a God for them. Might even be applicable to animals whose thinking
powers aren't so developed. (Like Charlie, said Treveor, unkindly).

Now I'm thinking that the God perceived thus is not individual cat,
dog,rodent, flower, corn-on-the-cob God - but the same God simply - well
actually comlexly - perceived through the limited faculty of the
organism/animal perceiving it.


I can't answer this in simple terms other than to note that I believe (as Lucretius did) that there never was a creation for (my reasons) in an infinite eternity (where infinite refers to a quality that encompasses both the large and small) and where eternity is independent of time "the universe" being both matter and void (for want of a better word) has always been and always will be. Lucretius laid the emphasis on the void. I extend it to the non void.

Alan and I used to ponder the fact that you only get a dog from dogs; only a cat from cats.

Lucretius : "Again, why is mind or thought never born in head or feet or hands ? Why does it cling fast in every man to one spot or a specified region ? It can only be that a specific place is assigned to each thing where it can be born and survive. So every creature is created with a great diversity of members, whose mutual position is never reversed. One thing duly follows another: flame is not born in a flood, nor frost begotten in fire." (Page 114 Penguin Classics Prose Edition)

Now have a glance at Alan's writings on the Kabbalah:

http://www.mcs.ca/vitalspark/2020_schools/305kaba00.html (Alan's writings towards the bottom)

At the top of the tree -> Kether

"There is little that can be said about Kether, for according to tradition, those who reach it do not return to tell us of their experience. Kether is, for us, unknowable, but we may nevertheless speculate concerning it, and we may attempt to describe it by saying what it is not. Kether is Eternity, an idea expressed by its other titles, The Ancient of Ancients, the Ages of Ages and the Ancient of Days. We are accustomed to think of eternity as an infinite extension of time. Eternity, as symbolised by Kether, is the complete absence of time. In Kether, time is not."

I have written elsewhere of an infinite eternity in which time has no meaning. Without dimension matter has no size either large or small and is therefore infinite and eternal. The absence of a creator does not rule out spirituality for mankind and life and thought are the interactions of items of atomic structure - being those that we as humans recognise. Given eternity I believe there are multiple spiritual forms. Lucretius himself didn't rule out the concept of "gods". He simply stated that no deity or any form at all created the universe for it has always been and always will be.

And yes in saying that I am also saying that the universe has it's own internal intelligence (your words) of which we (and other spiritual forms) are a part. Our bodies are inhabitable frames for intelligence. I don't necessarily believe there has to be a frame in which intelligence exists. Intelligence is the interaction of atomic structure including the major substructure of electrons and a myriad of particles that comprise the very small on which thought and spirituality depends.